BSK - am I off base?

[59Hunter]

I used to be firmly in the "education not regulation" school - meaning that if changes needed to be made for the good of any wildlife population, it would be more effective to educate the hunting population about the biological basis for altering certain behavior, than just to mandate that they change their behavior.

However, since starting to follow some hunting sites, I have consistently seen people with no basis, other than "what I have seen or been told," totally discounting the data, experience and knowledge of people like you, Dr. D, Nighthunter, and most recently Matt Brock, refusing to even consider that their "conventional wisdom" may be flawed, and becoming indignant, if not angry, that anyone would disagree with the way they have always done it. The lack of objectivity to even consider alternative positions, and often blatant disrespect for those giving them, has lead me to believe that there is a much larger percentage of the hunting population than I ever imagined that will not be swayed by education. Maybe it is just a vocal minority that appears to be larger than it is.

You are certainly in a better position than I to quantify the effectiveness of education vs. regulation, but what I have seen on the www does not make me optimistic. Your insight would be appreciated.

[Turkey_neck]

I am not a biologist nor am I bsk but I can tell you there are people who don't care. They could have 10 deer on 3,000 acres and given the chance they would shoot them all. Then they would move to the next club or lease and do the same. It is really sad how some have absolutely no respect for the wildlife we hunt. I can guarantee you just about every member of this site knows or has encountered the type. Even with regulation they won't be stopped no matter what you do.

[Hogwild]

True!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BSK]

That's an extremely tough question to answer. I've seen both regulation and education used wisely, with positive results. At the same time, I've seen both used incorrectly, with negative results. And worse yet, recently I've seen "education"--and by that I mean primarily just "information"--used nefariously to what I believe could ultimately be disastrous results, both biologically as well as to the detriment of hunting.

After all I've seen over the 20 years I've been deeply involved in deer management, I've come to the conclusion that regulation should be used only as a last result--if that is the only option towards protecting the resource from harm. Given more freedom of choice, I do believe that today's hunter is more educated than in the past, and will self-regulate themselves enough to protect the resource from over-exploitation, or at least--if a problem develops--can be educated to protect the resource. And I believe a more liberal system can be allowed, even though we all realize there will be those who abuse the system. I would rather live with some abuse and have more freedom of choice than to see excessive regulation.

And what I fear most of all--and I'm sadly seeing too much of--is regulation driven by VERY BAD education; i.e. regulations based on junk science or no science at all.

[Smitty]

a more liberal system can be allowed, even though we all realize there will be those who abuse the system. I would rather live with some abuse and have more freedom of choice than to see excessive regulation.

And what I fear most of all--and I'm sadly seeing too much of--is regulation driven by VERY BAD education; i.e. regulations based on junk science or no science at all.

These are some of the wisest words I've heard in a while. Freedom of choice.........excessive regulation, let those sink in.

Junk science...............theories and models with very little real life data......or even worse a couple of years of data and states regulatory authorities believing it is the gospel and dispelling the masses for not buying it lock stock and barrel.

BSK, I know it is hard to juggle it all sometimes, but I respect the hell out of you for that down to earth answer.

[59Hunter]

Thank you for your reply. I agree with you in principal, and in application regarding misuse of data to support a specific agenda. It's just the responses to some very knowledgable people's well reasoned posts that gives me pause.

I personally believe that any mature (5.5 yr old or older) buck is a trophy, but don't expect everyone to subscribe to my scale. I've also seen the adverse collateral impact "brown its down" on small tracts can have on whole areas. My general thought is that as long as people are responsible enough to not ruin the hunting on adjoining land, the way someone else enjoys hunting is none of my business.

[NightHunter]

I'll try and answer that in a way that we look at it from the state side. Also, please keep in mind I am very new to state government and I am a BIG outlier in the system.

It takes both education and regulation. Currently we are in a place where our Dept. is trying to allow folks to manage their own property with liberal antlerless harvest limits. Due to the education process for several years of "kill all the does you can" mentality, we've created a problem. Especially in the areas in north AL where the land ownership pattern and land use patterns are not set up for limitless doe harvests. The fragmented land ownership pattern up here has created large pockets where does are being over harvested. We as department created the illusion that this couldn't happen with the basically unlimited antlerless limit. Where you have several small landowners with the attitude of I'm going to kill my 3, 5, 7 deer a year and let it happen over a large scale area, you create a problem. This does happen, and we see it. We have actually seen it too much lately. It is mainly in areas of North AL though and has to do with a lot of different variables. But remember the things we have as tools are seasons/bag limits and large scale education movements. To correct a problem within a shorter time frame you use all three. If you aren't bleeding out the ears and have time, you educate.

The problem with education is that some people are always going to disagree and do what they think is right because they have observed animals in plots for 20 years or planted fields, burned pines, or whatever it is... Very few people in AL spend more time in the woods in different counties doing what we do. That doesn't make us right or them right but give us the benefit of the doubt. Most guys won't because of an overly emotional response to subject they hold high and may even consider themselves an expert at. However, killing deer/turkey means you are good at animal behavior and woodsmanship.

Now about being a biologist for a second...

From the education side, we are no smarter than anyone else, maybe even less so in many cases. Where things get frustrating in this field (especially as a state biologist) is when your asked your professional opinion and then pretty well told you're wrong with no basis of why. When I was a private sector biologist this never happened to me. I was well paid for my opinions.

When it comes to being a state biologist, we are often accused of doing ludicrous things like turning out coyotes, beavers, mountain lions, you name it and we've done it. Then you add in that we get accused of covering up data or making data say what we want it too to justify political moves, or just hide it all together. Or some folks just accuse us of doing nothing at all. It is quickly becoming a THANKLESS job. We do it because we love it! We do it because we love wildlife! We do it because we want it to be better tomorrow than it is today!

Being closed minded wouldn't be a good description either. Just ask around on here and you'll find out a little bit about me and how my DCNR tenure has gone thus far. I'm a bit of an outsider if you will. But... when we have (Matt or I) have tangible evidence on things we stick to our guns.

All this said, I am with Bryan, I like lots of evidence/data but that is something we are short of and will not have other than what we have collected as a staff doing our dat-to-day jobs. There is pending deer/turkey research that should clear some things up but that is still years out.

If you do have questions, I'll do my best to answer what I can. Some things I just will not throw out on an internet forum.

[59Hunter]

Thank you also Nighthunter. By the way, my reference to spinning data was not directed toward you, Matt or the DCNR - QDMA was the group that most came to mind. Thank you for all of your hard work and willingness to interact with the hunting public on your own time.

[NightHunter]

No offense taken. Just putting it all out there.

[BSK]

Junk science...............theories and models with very little real life data......or even worse a couple of years of data and states regulatory authorities believing it is the gospel and dispelling the masses for not buying it lock stock and barrel.

Heck, with some of these groups, if they would just use real data collected to study the topic in question I would be thrilled. But what I'm seeing a lot of these days is out-of-context data being spun, or actually faked data used in political arguments focused on changing state regulations. A truly sad state of affairs...

[BSK]

Phenomenal post NightHunter!!!!

[BSK]

Thank you for your reply. I agree with you in principal, and in application regarding misuse of data to support a specific agenda. It's just the responses to some very knowledgable people's well reasoned posts that gives me pause.

I personally believe that any mature (5.5 yr old or older) buck is a trophy, but don't expect everyone to subscribe to my scale. I've also seen the adverse collateral impact "brown its down" on small tracts can have on whole areas. My general thought is that as long as people are responsible enough to not ruin the hunting on adjoining land, the way someone else enjoys hunting is none of my business.

Yup, I too have seen the damage that can be done by hunters at the extreme ends of the scale--the trophyists at one end of the spectrum and the "kill everything that moves" group at the other.

Now I have no problem with hunters wanting a high-harvest opportunity experience or a trophy hunting experience. Both are fine within reason. I just start getting perturbed when I see groups of hunters trying to force either of these systems on all hunters using politically motivated regulations.

[BSK]

Currently we are in a place where our Dept. is trying to allow folks to manage their own property with liberal antlerless harvest limits. Due to the education process for several years of "kill all the does you can" mentality, we've created a problem. Especially in the areas in north AL where the land ownership pattern and land use patterns are not set up for limitless doe harvests. The fragmented land ownership pattern up here has created large pockets where does are being over harvested. We as department created the illusion that this couldn't happen with the basically unlimited antlerless limit. Where you have several small landowners with the attitude of I'm going to kill my 3, 5, 7 deer a year and let it happen over a large scale area, you create a problem. This does happen, and we see it. We have actually seen it too much lately.

Recently I got into a discussion on another talk forum about all of the mistakes I and other managers/researcher have made over the years. Basically, I discussion about "learning from experience," and how larger studies (better data) or changing conditions can refute earlier findings. And your above comments were definitely one of educational areas I wish I had to do over. I may have to cut and paste that commentary over here, because I think it's important.

[BSK]

I personally believe that any mature (5.5 yr old or older) buck is a trophy, but don't expect everyone to subscribe to my scale.

Hey, if you can successfully pull that off enough to make you happy, you da' MAN! And I mean that seriously. Killing bucks 5 1/2+ is not easy. I've only been able to do it a couple of times in my entire hunting career.

I have no problem with hunters setting high goals for themselves. As long as they realize those goals are going to be difficult to achieve in most situations, and are will to make the sacrifices necessary, I say good luck and more power to you!

If I set a goal of only bucks 5 1/2+, I would kill very, VERY few bucks for the rest of my life! I'm just not that good of a hunter.

[59Hunter]

Didn't say that is all I would ever shoot. Like you are saying, I just meant that killing any mature deer is a trophy to me because of how hard it is to accomplish - regardless of its headgear.

[daniel white]

Didn't say that is all I would ever shoot. Like you are saying, I just meant that killing any mature deer is a trophy to me because of how hard it is to accomplish - regardless of its headgear.

Dang right, we have run some sure enough old does with dogs, and she would run just like a big mature buck.. Same with Monkey hunting, 3-4 year old doe, is HARD to kill for sure

[mirage243]

Good thread.

[NightHunter]

I don't care how anyone hunts until it starts to spill over on to my property or surrounding properties. Personally, I hunt for mature deer. I could care less what a deer scores, doesn't matter. The age and the experience is the trophy.

What does bother me is seeing 1-2 individuals/landowners that refuse to work together with a group toward a common goal of at least promoting sound habitat/wildlife management. Most times when I see it, these folks want to ride the work of everyone else around them and reap the rewards. They usually pull deer a little too early, shoot a few more does than needed and put far less work into their property.

I will absolutely leave a lease with bad neighbors.

[BSK]

I don't care how anyone hunts until it starts to spill over on to my property or surrounding properties. Personally, I hunt for mature deer. I could care less what a deer scores, doesn't matter. The age and the experience is the trophy.

What does bother me is seeing 1-2 individuals/landowners that refuse to work together with a group toward a common goal of at least promoting sound habitat/wildlife management. Most times when I see it, these folks want to ride the work of everyone else around them and reap the rewards. They usually pull deer a little too early, shoot a few more does than needed and put far less work into their property.

I will absolutely leave a lease with bad neighbors.

Sadly, although we would love to produce equal results for everybody, that just isn't realistic. One of the toughest and most unfair things I have to tell hunters is that "what they want" may not be possible where they are currently hunting/managing. But that's simply the truth. Certain situations will not be conducive to certain outcomes. It may take finding a different hunting location/lease/property.

The buck age structure as a whole across the state of TN has improved dramatically over the last 15 years, and as a general rule is in great shape. But we still have plenty of counties with poor buck age structures. And the problem in these struggling counties isn't bad management. It's a problem of low deer density in combination with high hunter density. Competition for bucks in these areas is so high, no "low buck limit" is going to improve buck age structure. Honestly, it would require a lottery buck-tag system to reduce buck harvests far enough to improve buck age structure. Managing for older bucks in these areas is going to be a real effort in frustration. I often tell hunters in these areas that instead of wasting valuable effort, they would experience much better results if they first look for somewhere else to hunt.

[59Hunter]

Along those lines, how many acres do y'all think you need to have (1 owner or under cooperative mgmt) to yield a tangible change in age structure, ratios, etc.

[ikillbux]

Please don't take my answer as contrary or argumentative, I only intend to reiterate my stance on this education/regulation debate once again, even if in an exasperated tone of voice...

Neither is worth a pile of feces when proposed "universally". Until our state has the understanding/funds/manpower/other to create and enforce geo-specific regs, we're just playing political games that cannot be effective. Regs MUST be done on a county-by-county basis, and then provide exceptions on a permit basis for clubs and landowners within each county that need tighter/looser regs. I know counties that have an extremely low deer density (like you could hunt all season and maybe only see a couple of does), yet there is a 3000ac lease within that county that holds deer like an ant bed. I live in Calhoun Co and there are very low density numbers, should be ZERO does killed here. Yet literally 45 mins down the road is Chambers Co, where there's 50 does in every food plot every evening. You CANNOT have the same rules.

[Edwardo]

Calhoun/Chambers County seems to be a good place for DMAP to work for everybody.

Doe season could be closed for the county or part of the county and those who need to kill does could cooperate thru DMAP to kill whatever the supervising biologist determined needed to be killed ON THAT PROPERTY. That's the way DMAP works. It's site-specific.

Look how site-specific they've made dog hunting even without DMAP. Until recently, there were three different rules for dog hunting in Tuscaloosa County alone. Some of the county has a dog season, in some areas it's completely banned and in other areas you can get a permit.
The deer population density is just as varied across the county as the dog hunting rules, yet we have a one size fits all doe season.

[N2TRKYS]

Calhoun/Chambers County seems to be a good place for DMAP to work for everybody.

Doe season could be closed for the county or part of the county and those who need to kill does could cooperate thru DMAP to kill whatever the supervising biologist determined needed to be killed ON THAT PROPERTY. That's the way DMAP works. It's site-specific.

Look how site-specific they've made dog hunting even without DMAP. Until recently, there were three different rules for dog hunting in Tuscaloosa County alone. Some of the county has a dog season, in some areas it's completely banned and in other areas you can get a permit.
The deer population density is just as varied across the county as the dog hunting rules, yet we have a one size fits all doe season.

And yet there's still a huntable population in that county even with all the governmental intrusion. How can that be?

[Edwardo]

And yet there's still a huntable population in that county even with all the governmental intrusion. How can that be?

When the people of this state through our legislature enact game and fish laws to conserve and replenish game species, that's not intrusion. When a man or a small group of men on a board pass rules having the force and effect of law for reasons that are not defined by law, that is intrusion.

You need to learn the difference.

[BSK]

And yet there's still a huntable population in that county even with all the governmental intrusion. How can that be?

When the people of this state through our legislature enact game and fish laws to conserve and replenish game species, that's not intrusion. When a man or a small group of men on a board pass rules having the force and effect of law for reasons that are not defined by law, that is intrusion.

You need to learn the difference.

Was your commission that sets seasons and limits not created by law?