BSK - am I off base?

[BSK]

Regs MUST be done on a county-by-county basis, and then provide exceptions on a permit basis for clubs and landowners within each county that need tighter/looser regs.

That sounds like the perfect system. However, I have no idea how difficult that would be for the state to implement.

[Edwardo]

That sounds like the perfect system. However, I have no idea how difficult that would be for the state to implement.

Check out the rules for dog hunting in recent years in Alabama if you don't think seasons can be extremely site-specific:

From 2014-2015 for example:

DOG DEER HUNTING RESTRICTIONS:
Dog Deer Hunting Prohibited Except by Special Permit from the Department:
CHAMBERS; CHILTON (except that area inside the following boundaries: US Hwy. 82 from the Bibb County line south to AL Hwy. 183, west to the Perry County line); CHOCTAW, (that area south of AL Hwy. 10 and west of AL Hwy 17 and north of County Road 18 from AL Hwy 17 to County Road 14 then north of County Road 14 to the Mississippi state line.); COLBERT (that area inside the following boundaries: from the intersection of the Natchez Trace Parkway and U.S. Highway 72 west along U.S Hwy. 72 to the Mississippi State Line, North along the Mississippi State Line to the Tennessee River, East along the Tennessee River to the intersection of the Natchez Trace Parkway, South along the Natchez Trace Parkway to the intersection of US Highway 72); COOSA; COVINGTON, (north of US Hwy. 84); ELMORE, (that area inside the following boundaries: from the Coosa County/ Elmore County line at the east bank of Lake Jordan,to AL Hwy 9, then south along AL Hwy 9 to the intersection of US Hwy 231, then south along US Hwy 231 to the intersection of Al Hwy 14, then west along AL Hwy 14 to the east bank of the Coosa River, then north along the east bank of the Coosa River to Lake Jordan, back to the Coosa County/Elmore County line);GENEVA; HENRY; MACON, (that area inside the following
boundaries: from County Road 24 at the Lee County line, west and south to County Road 26, west to County Road 10, southeast to County Road 5, south to County Road 47, south to County Road 2, east to the Russell County line); PICKENS (north of US Hwy. 82); TALLAPOOSA and WILCOX counties. Individual property owners in CHAMBERS and COOSA counties may hunt with dogs on their own property without special permit. No dog deer hunting allowed on Open Permit-Public Land (see 220-2-.85).
By Stalk Hunting Only, (No Dogs)
BIBB; CHILTON; AND PERRY: (that area inside the following boundaries: east of AL Hwy. 219, south of US Hwy. 82 and north of AL Hwy. 183); BUTLER (that area south of AL Hwy. 106 and east of I-65); CHEROKEE; CLEBURNE; COFFEE (that area inside the following boundaries: AL Hwy. 134 from the Covington County Line, east to County Road 460, south to the Geneva County line, east to the Dale County line, north to AL Hwy. 134, west to AL Hwy. 87 north to US Hwy. 84, west to AL Hwy. 189, south to the AL Hwy. 141 and north to US Hwy. 84, west to the Covington County line; CRENSHAW (north of AL Hwy. 10 and that area inside the following boundaries, from the east city limit of Luverne, US Hwy. 29 east to the junction of County Road 57, County Road 57 south to the junction of Davis Road, Davis Road west to County Road 41, County Road 41 south to US Hwy. 331, US Hwy. 331 north to County Road 41, County Road 41 north to County Road 39, County Road 39 north to the Luverne city limit; DALE (that area inside the following boundaries: Judy Creek south to Dale County Road 36, east to AL Hwy. 27, north to the Henry County line, north to the Barbour County line, west to Judy Creek); DEKALB; ELMORE (that area inside the following boundaries: east of US Hwy. 231, south of AL Hwy. 14, west of Tumkeehatchee Creek and north of the Tallapoosa River. FAYETTE (that area inside the following boundaries: west of US Hwy 43 and north of AL Hwy. 18); FRANKLIN; HALE AND PERRY: (that area inside the following boundaries: from County Road 32 at the Hale County Line, west to the intersection of AL Hwy. 25, AL Hwy. 25 north until it intersects with the Talladega National Forest boundary, following the boundary south until it intersects the Perry County line, following the National Forest boundary east to Perry County Road 23, south to the intersection of Perry County Road 29, south to the Spring Hill Church Road, Spring Hill Church Road west to the junction of Perry County Road 23 and AL Hwy. 14, west to the Hale County line.
GREENE; PICKENS; AND TUSCALOOSA: (that area inside the following boundaries: in Pickens County from the intersection of US Hwy. 82 and County Road 63, south on County Road 63 to Benevola, County Road 2 (commonly known as the Romulus Road) east through Greene County to US Hwy. 82 in Tuscaloosa County);HOUSTON; JACKSON; LAMAR; LAUDERDALE; LAWRENCE; LIMESTONE; MADISON; MARION; MARSHALL; MORGAN; RANDOLPH; TUSCALOOSA (that area north of US Hwy. 82); and
WINSTON (that area east of AL Hwy. 5 from the Walker County line to Natural Bridge and all that area north of US Hwy. 278).

[BSK]

That's pretty site specific Edwardo! Those descriptions looks like deer hunting units in Michigan, which are sub-county.

[N2TRKYS]

And yet there's still a huntable population in that county even with all the governmental intrusion. How can that be?

When the people of this state through our legislature enact game and fish laws to conserve and replenish game species, that's not intrusion. When a man or a small group of men on a board pass rules having the force and effect of law for reasons that are not defined by law, that is intrusion.

You need to learn the difference.

Actually, you need to pay better attention to what you read instead of just wanting to say the same thing over and over.

[Edwardo]

That's pretty site specific Edwardo! Those descriptions looks like deer hunting units in Michigan, which are sub-county.

It's easy for them to do it for the wrong reasons. Wonder why they can't do it for the right reasons?

Dog hunting seasons are set to allow complaints to be settled by closing hunting seasons instead of the complaints being settled in the courts. That's another due process issue. Fair trials in an impartial court replaced with hunting bans imposed by prejudiced board members with no due process.

Alabama is in a mess.

[BSK]

Along those lines, how many acres do y'all think you need to have (1 owner or under cooperative mgmt) to yield a tangible change in age structure, ratios, etc.

So much depends on the habitat of the property, how much control the hunters/managers have over that habitat, and the deer density for the area. Having the best habitat in the area makes a HUGE difference. Lots of deer cures so many ills. But I've seen exceptional management produce measurable changes on 100 acres.

However, in a situation like that, how much of the improvements were due to management of the actual resource (the deer) versus management of their environment (the habitat)? I would put 90% of the improvements on management of the habitat.

[NightHunter]

It is a big balancing act.

Balance your goals with the amount of work you're willing to put in...

Like Bryan said, most of what needs to be done is usually habitat/land or hunter based. A very low percentage of the time is it wildlife related. Maybe a combination of the two but rarely only wildlife related.

[BSK]

It is a big balancing act.

Balance your goals with the amount of work you're willing to put in...

Like Bryan said, most of what needs to be done is usually habitat/land or hunter based. A very low percentage of the time is it wildlife related. Maybe a combination of the two but rarely only wildlife related.

And add to that "hunter management." And by that I mean education in a number of directions. I've been lucky to produce a number of noteworthy success in my career. But if I'm being honest, those successes are FAR more about good habitat work (creating the habitat hunter-wary deer are drawn to) and educating hunters to be better hunters (teaching the techniques/skills needed to see and kill older bucks). Surprisingly, actual deer management is a distant third in importance. From my experiences, most management project "failures" are more primarily failures of hunters to see and kill what is there. The hunters believed once the old bucks were there, they would kill them using the same techniques they had always used. The hunters weren't willing to accept that hunting older bucks requires unique skills, nor learn those skills.

[Lahunter]

NightHunter said - I'll try and answer that in a way that we look at it from the state side. Also, please keep in mind I am very new to state government and I am a BIG outlier in the system.

Jeremy, from another outsider perspective....I know you are in the public eye and some on the inside wish to not subject themselves to unjust scrutiny. I can appreciate their opinion on that. They feel they are doing the dead level best they can do with the resources they have and to get beat up over it voluntarily is not worth it. I disagree. It is worth it.

You and others like you are helping to change the opinions of a DCNR/CAB that doesn't listen. You are an educational resource on an every day basis to individual landowners. In this setting, you are an educational resource to a much larger population. While it definitely not site specific, it is beneficial from a biological, statistical and informational standpoint. The CAB can serve to undo what the DCNR works so hard to accomplish in a very short meeting without education from the DCNR and without listening to the state and private biologist that should be their resource.

Side note - I still despise some of the CAB decisions.

[Edwardo]

Ask Jerremy to help you manage your property properly and you can get around some of those inflexible wrong decisions of the CAB.

I can tell you from experience that he is enthusiastic about assisting on properties where he has been invited. He doesn't look at the logs and that's it. He surveys the property and tries to get as much of an overall assessment as he can in the limited time he has to share with you. He'll still be ready for more when you're worn out and ready to go home. :)

[NightHunter]

Speaking of Eddie... it's about time for me to come down.

[Lahunter]

Jeremy would have a long ride from North Alabama to the beach.

[Edwardo]

Speaking of Eddie... it's about time for me to come down.

Just let me know when and I'll arrange it. My schedule is very flexible, but the others may need some notice. We'll try to work ours around yours for a starting point.

Looking forward to seeing you again.

[Edwardo]

Jeremy would have a long ride from North Alabama to the beach.

He's got a man down there that can help you. Check the Technical Assistance crew in the front of the regulation book for contact info.

Here ya go:

779 Chris Nix, Wildlife Biologist
30571 Five Rivers Blvd, Spanish Fort, 36527
Office: (251) 626-5474 ................................ SOUTH ALABAMA

[NightHunter]

Jeremy would have a long ride from North Alabama to the beach.

He's got a man down there that can help you. Check the Technical Assistance crew in the front of the regulation book for contact info.

Here ya go:

779 Chris Nix, Wildlife Biologist
30571 Five Rivers Blvd, Spanish Fort, 36527
Office: (251) 626-5474 ................................ SOUTH ALABAMA

We have great guys scattered across the state.

Matt Brock handles west of 65 down to the Tuscaloosa area. I handle everything east of 65 down to Tallapoosa County. Brian Grice handles SE AL and Chris Nix handles SW AL.

[Edwardo]

Will Matt be taking over supervision of our property Jerremy?

[NightHunter]

No

[Lahunter]

Jeremy

What size properties do you handle under the technical assistance program? And do you handle more than just pine goats?

[Edwardo]

No

Bring him with you anyhow. We would be glad to have him come look around with you.

[NightHunter]

Jeremy

What size properties do you handle under the technical assistance program? And do you handle more than just pine goats?

Any size. I do any critters from song birds to deer. My expertise is deer, turkey, habitat, and to a lesser extent quail. I am a big habitat guy.